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HTC Could Win Ban Against New iPad and New iPhone Based on LTE Patents

Surprise, surprise, there is another patent battle going on. This time Apple and HTC are arguing over patents in the International Trade Commission. In this trial, HTC is claiming that Apple is infringing upon patents having to do with LTE technology, patents that were secured for the HTC Thunderbolt. They now say that these patents are used in the new iPad and will be used in the new iPhone.

ITC Judge Thomas Pender said the case might end up with an import ban unless Apple can invalidate the two patents in question, which he also said is not very easy. We just got a statement from Samsung last week saying they would sue over an LTE iPhone, is this going to give Android some wins in the court room?

Via: Bloomberg

  • jeff campbell

    HTC should get the apple devices banned to prove a point that Apple is being stupid and then after a month agree to lift the ban and say we we lifted the ban in good faith of fair competition and all these lawsuits are just proving that Apple is a big baby and can’t play fair.

  • Matt D

    Time for Crapple to get a taste of their own medicine.

  • a.youth.in.Asia

    LTE is an Android thing. iPhones do just fine 3g.

    • JazzoRenee

      You’re kidding right?? The amount of people I hear complaining of NOT having 4G, who are IPhone useres, would prove your statement wrong.

  • I love HTC so much right now. I really hope they win!

  • al

    I just hope HTC or Samsung just uses there patents to force apple to pay them for each and every Icrap they sell! Maybe to the tune of 1 billion dollars…..

  • wm snyder

    I think Apple should quit phones all together! Start building the latest greatest eye pop in candy…. The Apple Android (a real android robot) it has round edges elongated it has icloud memory it never forgets it has bounce back attitude has speech and Internet capabilities and you can buy upgrades yearly! Male or Female versions available. Comes with it’s own unique charging plug and sync with itunes with your very own The Android Store!

  • ArmanUV

    So it’s all good when HTC sues Apple over a industry standard like LTE but Apple is evil because they sued samsung over design conventions? Come on people.


    • JazzoRenee

      Apple insist that they are the best when in fact that aren’t the rules are if Apple can use so can HTC and Samsung. Don’t cry foul because Apple is in a position of losing.
      That’s what they get.

  • Brett Besa

    I am of two minds on this. I would love to see this patent nonsense end and let products win based on how good they are. However, Apple drew first blood and Samsung got ripped off in the last major court case. It would be great for them to get a taste of their own medicine and feel what a ban over triviality feels like.

  • Noel

    I also wanna see a truce on all these lawsuits. But it will be nice to see Apple get a taste of it’s own med…they are the culprit of most of the lawsuits on Android OEMs. Like I’ve said b4 competition should be on showrooms not courtrooms. Let the best product win…besides in the case of Sammy and the fruit they are both making a killing sales wise. They are all copying and stealing and improving on prior technology.

  • So when is the date when the ban will go in effect? I want to mark that on my calendar as laugh at an iSheep day!

  • Will htc be able to win these? Arent all the 4g patents under the FRAND agreement? Didnt another company already get in trouble for abusing the frand patents?

  • Apple never thought this thru, they fought and fought paying millions upon millions of dollars just to get a FEW devices banned from the market. But here is where they made the dumbest move of all time..they pissed off companies that could essentially leave them with no current generation technology on American store shelves. If HTC wins this ban then what will Apple have to sell? The iPad 4 or whatever won’t be out until middle of next year and thats an ENTIRE holiday season Apple would have to give up to Android Tablets. What about when Samsung screws them over with the iPhone, if iPhone is banned then Apple has nothing to fall back on,unlike Android where one device gets banned, another device similar just gains in sales.

    • JazzoRenee

      Well, I guess that’s why they are forcing college students in China, working at less than the appropriate labor amount, to manufacture these phone and them out before the verdict is given.

  • A.J.

    Heh, I guess Apple should have jumped on the LTE bandwagon a little sooner eh?

  • Mike

    I hope they stick it to apple. Teach them a lesson using their own medicine.


    I’m sure as of right now HTC and Samsung have their lawsuit briefings all set and ready to send them into court and announce the suit once Apple announces the “New iPhone.”

  • Would an import ban matter if they already imported x million of them? Maybe 6 months down the road. Probably wouldn’t stop the launch.

    • MicroNix

      They can certainly get an injunction just like Apple tries to do in addition to the import ban.

  • lye

    Jesus Christ. I hope Android wins this and then these companies just f’ing stop. It’s completely ridiculous and not what innovation is about, it’s neo-conservatism at it’s worst. Apple is mad that someone is cutting into their historically unprecedented profit margin. Yeah…richest company in the world crying that everyone is stealing their profits. This Android push back and just showing how absurd the market is.

  • Kc

    The hell with HTC. They need to worry about updating their phones on time. I have an incredible 2 and I still haven’t received ICS. I will be buying an Iphone 5 because the customer service for apple is great and ios is much smoother then android. Who cares about all the customizing home screens if it doesn’t run smooth…Android doesn’t even have a stock group chat…smh

    • PhillipCun

      Your problem is that you bought an HTC. Your experience is as good as your phone. Your phone sucks so your experience sucked. iPhone 5 will be a great phone, have fun with that.

      • Kc

        Well I have had Motorola as well. Actually the phone I have now I have to say is my best one. I had the original droid which was my first smartphone. It was cool until it got an update. After that is was horrible and I had to keep sending it in until I finally got a droid 2. That phone was just as worse..

        • PhillipCun

          OG Droid was great for its time. I loved that phone. I got an HTC after and it was a total POS. I even thought about switching back to Apple myself until I bought the Samsung Gnex. It reminded me how awesome Vanilla Android was. The developer support and updates and the pure Google experience has convinced me that this is what Android was supposed to be like. All these manufacturers are ruining the experience with their lack of updates and their skins….. Look into Nexus before you take the dive to an iPhone 5. Remember Steve Jobs is gone, and he took the innovation with him (IMO).

          • Kc

            I’ll check it out. I read that the Iphone 5 is the last phone he really had to do something with. I agree with you though, I loved my original droid until it got the update. HTC doesn’t support their phones. I don’t feel like I should be buying a phone ever 6 months because they have made a new one and don’t support what they already put out. That’s bad business..

    • Jason James

      are you claiming that google talk doesnt come on your phone or that it doesnt have group chat?
      ps. it does have group chat

      • Kc

        When I say group chat I mean with my telephone number sir..Where all the messages come to one thread from different people..

        • Jason James

          i thought imessage was in a separate app just like BBM was but im not sure as idc to know. but i would rather have my messages on all my devices instead of one which is why i use google voice. but i thought imessage uses your apple ID not phone# because the *pad has it to?

          • Kc

            Actually if you have the phone it uses your number but if you have an Ipad it uses your apple ID. Its in the stock messenger though. My wife has an iphone 4 and it hasn’t had one problem. She’s had it since it launched on verizon.. That’s over a year and a half…

          • Jason James

            i get what ur saying but its stupid for apple and blackberry to lock people to only talking to ppl with their same device for free when probably everyone on all platforms can download can use an app like google talk or any other internet app to text/ group chat other ppl for free because its an app and a not a stock app. apple isnt winning any points for allowing apple users to message each other for free when they’re services that have already been doing that for years. Google wouldn’t lock out other platforms

  • I am all for Android makers fighting back, but this is a LTE patent, isn’t it supposed to be licensed in FRAND. Can it really be used to sue Apple? Although, the ITC judge seems to indicate otherwise, which is GREAT!

  • scoo

    Take that Cr-pple!

  • I’m a bit confused, wouldnt HTC need to sue ALL the companies that are not HTC that use lte?? im pretty sure both motorola and samsung use lte right? would HTC need to sue verizon too because doesnt verizon control the 4glte towers? wouldnt that make verizon a patent breaker?

    it all seems a little ridiculous to me. Apple sued samsung (and i THINK is suing others too) NOT because other phones were rectangles and stuff guys, they sued because samsung was just straight up copying the iphone, this is why they won the lawsuit, and samsung never even tried to deny it.

    Its obvious to me that having these law suits isnt the problem. It’s incredibly obvious that the problem is how the patent laws work. if you can win a law suit based on the fact that a device has lte after you do, and you can win, then all of us that use ANY smart phone are in real trouble..if they win an lte patent case, then whats to stop the maker of bluetooth or wifi, or heck the internet in general from suing EVERY phone manufacturer for having wifi, bluetooth, radios, cameras, lcd’s….I’m pretty sure you cant win a case based on suing over TECHNOLOGY, you can only win a case based off direct COPIED USEAGE of that technology right?? i mean thats they way it’s supposed to be right?? someone please help me out with my confusion.

    • Actually if you look at what the lawsuits were, it was suing for rectangular phone and table with rounded edges and incredibly broad patents that should not have been patented in the first place. These patents are also used by many companies, but Apple chose samsung because Samsung is also the number 1 android cellphone maker right now.

  • tbuser

    looks like my thunderbolt is actually a useful device?

  • npompei

    “We didn’t start the fire…”

  • LionStone

    And apple had the nerve to say that HTC bought that telecom company (for the LTE), just so they can sue them…and the judge said he didn’t care!

  • Chris

    I just had to share because I thought it was so cool that HTC replied to me! 😀


  • bedwa

    And the first Patent Atom Bombs have been dropped on both sides (as long as this goes as planned), from here is it going to be a Patent Cold War, or Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD)?

  • As happy as this is to hear at the same time it’s disappointing because this is the same BS that Apple is doing and this type of crap needs to stop.

  • William_Morris

    Can we get the judge to ban all these lawsuits?

  • NyReynolds

    Suck it apple, suck it

  • mbaldwin85

    This is getting old. Regardless of what side you are on.
    On another note, time to tell your kids to become lawyers who specialize in patent lawsuits. They’ll be busy for years to come.

  • at the end of the day all these lawsuits due is make us customers/fans of these products suffer apple just dont want the crown took from them competition pushes each company to innovate and take other ideas and advance them im a android fan but i hate to see phones get banned

  • john

    I really wish this whole crap about suing one another for something stupid like the shape of a phone, slide to unlock, the look and feel to a phone would really stop. Consumers like myself are getting tired of this bitter war. Its our choice to buy whatever phone or tablet we feel comfortable of buying. Its getting ridiculous next thing you’ll see some company suing another company because its called a cell phone not a phone, or better yet suing for the button that says “answer call” geez wouldn’t that be something. “can’t we all just get along?”

  • Superdroid


  • Ken Bosse

    I knew I loved my Thunderbolt for some reason. (R.I.P. – due to S3)

    • UrDoGG

      I retired mine too. And once I rooted and put a stock ICS rom on it, I bought the official HTC dock and turned it into the most awesome alarm clock eva.

      • Ken Bosse

        ha nice. Right now my Moto Droid is my alarm clock. I wish the charging port wasn’t on the side the kick stand leans on, or else I would use the TB For sure.

  • MKader17

    What would almost be better than a ban on the iPhone is the look on peoples faces when Apple announces that LTE capabilities will have to be activated in a future update.

  • MrEnglish

    Doubt it, but if so, they lost my business.


    • Patent-ality

      • Tony Perez

        Sounds like a twisted name for a reality show! LOL

  • slider112

    Turnabout is fair play.

  • bogy25

    BAN IT! F apple – They started this sh*t We finish

  • enigmaco

    I’m tired of the lawsuits but Apple deserves this, I hope the talks prove that a truce can be formed but i doubt it

  • majormudafuckinhun

    I can see it now HTC wins this because of the Thunderbolt, Verizon re releases it with modern specs. IMAGINE THAT!

  • aQuickBit

    I want HTC to win this. Instead of having an import ban, MAKE Apple publicly announce that they infringed on the patents and also have them say “But however HTC will continue to let [us] Apple import and sell the iPhone 5 as it will help competition and hopefully fuel innovation thus benefitting the worldwide consumer”.

    • I think they should change that a bit by having Apple announce an infringement but HTC announce they will allow Apple to sell their product for the betterment of the consumer. This way HTC is seen as the stand up company.

      • Tony Perez

        Sounds like a great idea… HA! HA HA! HA! Sorry, I couldn’t say that with a straight face! Seriously, while it would be good publicity for HTC, they need cash flow. Stifling Apple’s LTE product release would be great publicity for HTC and likely earn the respect of its Android competitors and consumers.

  • AnGeLFaCe777

    great news for us!

  • ….Oh my goodness….Please let this happen

  • PC_Tool


    More fodder for the lawyers that will have no substantive affect on the consumer, market, or patent system?


    The fanboys and trolls will have their “monkeys throwing their own feces” fun, but it will make no difference in the long run?


    The more things stay the same, the more they stay the same…

  • majormudafuckinhun

    The Thunderbolt a winner? Imagine that!

    • moelsen8

      that’s the real story here. haha. the true iphone-killer!

      • majormudafuckinhun

        Wasn’t it Verizon that actually had HTC rework the tbolt to be their first LTE phone?

    • And you all doubted it 😉

    • Tony Perez

      I guess Apple never saw this coming! The HTC Thunderbolt, a slow fused bomb against the legal onslaught of Apple. Now we can only hope the courts all over the planet agree. Not to close down this side of Apple’s business but to perhaps initiate more cooperation between tech companies.

  • reyalP

    Iphone may not come out on schedule! Reroute those units back to China and pull the LTE devices out of them! LOL, Looks like karma may very well bite them on the ass!

  • lilkerv90210

    Apple is just going to have to accept that in this world something better exist. That something is called Android

  • MotoGoogle has LTE and cellular patents they’re currently asking for a ban on all iPad, iPhone products… HTC is asking for a ban on any Apple LTE devices…. Samsung owns approximately 10% of all LTE patents… Sounds like Apple shouldn’t be messing with LTE. The iPhone5 might not make a US appearance this holiday season or the price will be jacked up so high nobody will really want it. And if the price does go up, everyone will see Samsung as a viable alternative after all the publicity they got for *cough* “copying” *cough* Apple. (Samsung copying the copycat Apple?)

  • blah

    Seems like Apple stole technology from HTC and HTC is willing to go thermonuclear war on it. An LTE capable iphone and iPad are stolen products.

  • shamu11

    just imagine tim cook at the press conference for the new iphone

    “We have a revolutionary phone here, however we can’t sell it, thank you all for coming.”

    i’d laugh haha

    • Tony Perez

      Sounds like the new Windows 8 phones from Nokia. Wait! Those will be released “soon”! The new iPhone, maybe not so soon….

  • bigdav1178

    While I personally don’t think the use of LTE in a mobile device should be patentable, with the $hit patents Apple has been granted and successfully litigated, I really hope Apple gets smacked where it hurts with these LTE patents.

    • Tony Perez

      It’s still technology that someone developed and another company wants a free ride. That’s the basis for the patent claims. So, LTE tech is a valid claim. Apple’s “design patents” are (to me) a joke. If I worked for them I’d ask them not to patent the wheel since the circle is a basic design. It’s that way with the shape of the iPhone. My mother has an old LG Voyager handset that’s rectangular with rounded corners. It’s a smaller than the iPhone but still, the concept existed before Apple received a patent for it! It wasn’t even a concept! It EXISTED! Yes, it’s time someone got “smacked” for messing with solid tech patents.

  • pezjono

    Can’t help but feel sorry for Apple… Oh wait, yes we can!

  • Capt. Crunch

    Hey if Apple could ban the Nexus why not ban the next iPhone. Karma baby

  • Robert Jakiel

    One can only hope. I truly hope that it does call for a ban and not some licensing fees per device. I would love to see Steve Jobs roll over in his grave for the patent war he started because he felt slighted. It would also be nice to see Tim Cook get punched in the dick too. Hopefully if HTC sees success so will Samsung with their LTE patents.

    • Stevedub40

      I LOL’d when I read this ”
      It would also be nice to see Tim Cook get punched in the dick too.” So very true

    • Apple is dumb for one reason…they put all their money into one device. If HTC wins then Apple has no current generation tablet on the market and luckily the iPad 3 isn’t slated to be announced til middle of 2013 (I just did a quick google search, correct me if I’m wrong) so that would mean Apple would have to surrender an entire holiday season to Android! Oh how I would love it!
      The iPhone is another story, if that thing gets banned I bet there would be riots over it! The iSheep love their iShit 5 and wouldn’t care if its illegal in the US!

  • moelsen8

    suck it, apple

  • OreoMan

    Reap meet sow, sow this is reap!


    This is getting ridiculous… but, I LIKE IT!!!

    • Tony Perez

      While it looks bitter, it appears it may be the sweet taste of JUSTICE!

  • Kyle Fullmer

    I really hope the Android OEMs use this as a way to make a truce with Apple to end the stupid suing and not actually as a way to ban their devices. The competition between iOS and Android is good for both systems, a ban only hurts the customers.

    • Mark

      I completely agree. As a Google-fanboy I want to see these lawsuits come to an end with the companies playing nice because it will make all products better for the customer. If there is a ban it will just force apple to use a different technology for high speed data which will divide the industry even more so certain phones are only available on certain networks… back to the beginning like when apple was only on ATT

      • evltwn

        Apple needs to think more like Microsoft in some of these patent lawsuits. Just about every OEM maker who runs Android pays a licensing fee to Microsoft. For every phone they manufacture. Microsoft makes a $hitload of money just from these fees alone. The reverse is true here too. Make Apple pay to use your product. More $$ for you.

        • That is a good idea…except apple has never been known to listen. Just look at the case where they stole the iPad name. They knew it wasn’t theirs and didn’t care.

          • Mchl496

            Ipad is a complete rip off. Go watch star trek the next generation. WHat are they always using? Pads 😉

          • Tony Perez

            Unfortunately, it’s about who got to the patent office first with “real” technology, not props. That’s why lots of progressive legal minds are calling for a revision of the U.S. patent system.

          • Mchl496

            Props on tv yes…. but concept written in a book? Star Trek made a lot of guides on their tech with specs and ideas.

          • drathos

            All of Apple’s naming for all things mobile (except, as far as I know, the iPod) have infringed on someone else’s trademark. iPhone was originally a Cisco trademark (desktop office phone) as was/is iOS (Cisco’s network operating system). iPad was some Chinese (or was it Taiwanese?) company.

            They’ve repeatedly shown a complete disregard for anyone else’s “intellectual property” (see Jobs’ comments from way back where he misquoted Picasso) while being hyper aggressive against everyone else using IP that should have never been awarded to Apple.

        • jseah114

          The problem is Apple is greedy and really don’t want to license anything to their competitors, so they demand license fees that are so high that it would be cost prohibitive for their competitors to agree to it. And yet when the shoe is on the other foot and Apple has to pay, they want to pay nothing for it. Like when Apple was found to be infringing on a Samsung patent, fee negotiations failed because Apple refused to pay more than 5 cents per unit as a license fee.

          • evltwn

            Well nobody ever accused Apple of being open-minded.

          • SAMBO

            This is false. We have to be objective here. I don’t like Apple just as much as all of you, but Apple did offer to license their patents to Samsung. They offered Samsung $30/phone and $40/tablet. Samsung turned this down and payed over a billion instead.

          • jseah114

            If you read my post, I never said that Apple didn’t offer to license their patents. I said that they priced their license fees so high that it would be cost prohibitive for anyone to accept. You said yourself that Apple offered Samsung the use of Apple’s patents for $30/phone and $40/tablet. And yet Apple was only willing to pay Samsung 5 cents/phone for the use of Samsung’s patents.

          • SAMBO

            You are correct.

          • Abhisshek Das

            Samsung did not payed yet they appealing to the higher court against that judgement

          • Tony Perez

            $30 and $40 seems like an obscene amount of money per handset for technology that isn’t core to the functionality of a device. The point being made is that Apple refuses to pay a similar amount for technology that IS. Also, Samsung hasn’t paid a penny of the $1.1 billion awarded to Apple. It’s now going to be appealed and judges with more common sense will determine if the award was just and if it was appropriate at all to be decided in Apple’s favor. The recent Apple v. Samsung case in the US courts won’t truly be decided until all appeals are exhausted. We’ll see….

        • Mchl496

          After one of your friends loses 1 Billion to Apple your not likely to play nice with the kid willing to throw rocks just because hes jealous. Crippling Apple is the only way they learn to get better AGAIN.

      • Mchl496

        Divide the industry even more? The industry is pretty united on the 4g standard being LTE now. WiMax is being killed off quickly. I hope they do ban the iphone. Apple was being dicks in the first place, and they need to get off this path steve jobs put them on. Apple could develop a new 4g method but is that likely? No because you would need the carriers to adopt it and with Verizon already heavily invested in LTE I could not see them stepping away. Apple will probably look into buying patents related to 5g when that becomes closer to reality Yes there are demos and work under way on 5g but nothing worth paying for and heavily investing in.

        • thebruce44

          We aren’t even at 4G right now and wont be (outside of Korea) for a few more years. 5G wont be feasible until 2020, its not even worth discussing IMO.

          • Mchl496

            ITs still 4g… 4g is a liberally applied term to this technology. Its not fully developed and implemented but its getting there. When someone can say my phone is as fast or faster then my home internet connection I think thats huge. 5g will be the thing which allows for insane quality and file sizes on a massive scale. 5g Should be the thing which allows me to send or receive my 500gig back up ssd drive wirelessly in a couple minutes to another location.

          • MicroNix

            5G will probably also be able to drain your battery faster than than a speeding Lamborghini unless something comes up in the way of battery tech.

    • dezignstuff

      Well, eventually. There’s a time for peace, but this is a time for war. Apple deserves to get cored, and I’d love to see the iPhone 5 banned from import. Vengeance? Yes. Peace will serve both sides, but for now, Apple owes us all a pound of flesh.

      • TheDrizzle

        Tonight, we dine in helll!

      • Firant

        But not an ounce of blood.

      • DanKemple

        I just think it would be hilarious if Crapple does this big announcement tomorrow and then it’s delayed months (at least till after xmas) because of patent infrindgement. Taste of their own medicine.

      • michael arazan

        Apple started this stupid thing and kept it going ever since, when they gave up on innovation in order to seek out litigation. You’d think apple was run by lawyers now. You’d think if they had started off with just simple licensing deals and vice versa, everybody would be happier and a billion or so more dollars richer from sharing and further along in innovation.

    • brandon jewell

      well stated kyle

    • PhillipCun

      Maybe after they hurt Apple a little.

      • Tony Perez

        From personal childhood experience, it’s good to give the bully a good hit. In my case, it made him think twice about messing with me again. Remember McFly in back to the future…? Sadly, Apple is the bully. A greedy one. While their products show a high level of technological expertise, their actions show a lower level of global awareness about consumers and humanity. I know businesses exist to generate revenue. It’s HOW the revenue is made that gives a company a “seat at the table” with humanity for the long-term. IBM, HP, Proctor and Gamble, and Coke are companies that find ways to stay connected with their consumers. Yes, they have fierce competitors who want to take away some of their market share but we never really hear of these companies filing lawsuits as if it was part of their strategic business plan the way Apple appears to do.


    Goes to show that Apple shouldn’t through stones when it lives in a glass house.

    • Kyle

      The apple store is made of glass XD

      • The iPhone is made without gorilla glass too.

  • cobjones

    I want HTC to win this bad, and not just as a fan but, but maybe with Apple losing a big case like this will get them to start playing nice.

    • TheDrizzle

      I want HTC to win as an Apple hater, not an Android lover.

      • Tony Perez

        I can imagine the execs at Microsoft and Nokia sitting back, eating popcorn, and enjoying the show! LOL

  • HeartStrong07

    Hope this turns HTC’s way, slows Apple’s lawsuits down, and increases competition on true breakthrough innovation that serves consumers …

  • Let’s hope it does, because Apple damn well deserves what’s coming to them

  • bkosh84

    So Apples iPhone 5 might never see the light of day and be stuck on 3G? Fantastic.

    • Tony Perez

      With Apple releasing a new handset every year. They should have released an LTE handset last year with a battery of slightly higher capacity. Then this year, they could have released a better LTE device. Instead, they spent the year suing competitors all over the planet. I feel for their users. Especially those who payed for overpriced devices with obsolete 3G technology. I helped my elderly mother purchase an iPad to help her use “something” to use on the Internet and connect to her loved ones. I’m not impressed with the iOS. It’s cumbersome and can take too many steps for simple OS functions. Also, what’s the deal with no widgets?! The the ITC rules in favor of HTC, maybe Apple can spend it’s “hiatus” working on its mobile OS. Oh, a “back key” would be a nice addition to iOS too…

  • Judge Judy

    Could this seriously “outlaw” the new iphone? I seriously doubt that although this is a very compelling case. That would be crazy. Does anyone think Apple would actually allow that to happen- moreover, do you think a judge would actually BAN such a popular device in America?

    • TheTruthSquad

      We had judge Apple throw the SF suit to Apple, why not have a judge give them what they received?

    • Hunter

      Since when does popularity prohibit banning a product? If anything it makes the violations more blatant and therefore increasing the drive to ban such a product.

  • OldNuc

    Apple has a very long history of being a patent troll. It is way past time for them to be turned into sauce.


    What goes around comes around.

  • r0lct

    I like dem apples.